tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144408548910691939.post7696857551880876836..comments2024-02-07T03:13:33.370-05:00Comments on Gakkery: The Thoughts of Gregory Koch: Lincoln's Birthday: A Reflection on the "Good Guys" of the Civil WarUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144408548910691939.post-5628853872784964972012-02-14T18:41:27.254-05:002012-02-14T18:41:27.254-05:00What citation do you have for proposing the death ...What citation do you have for proposing the death penalty for proposing that slavery had to end? I've never heard of anything like that. Especially since such a thing would be Unconstitutional.... Oh wait, Lincoln did stuff that was Unconstitutional. So I suppose it's possible, though I haven't heard of it.<br /><br />With regards to Dred Scott and the Kansas-Nebraska Act, I never argued in favor of those. I don't think they were right. But that's not what I'm saying here. I'm saying Lincoln wasn't right either.<br /><br />The problem is that people tend to think in absolutes. You're saying slavery was wrong. I agree. You're saying Dred Scott and the Kansas-Nebraska Act were wrong. I agree. You are therefore concluding, that Lincoln, who opposed slavery and the Kansas-Nebraska Act, was 100% right in everything he ever did as President. I disagree. Just because one side is wrong doesn't mean the other side is right. Or as my mom always told me when I quarreled with my sister, "Two wrongs don't make a right". There doesn't always has to be one clear side of "good guys" and one clear side of "bad guys". In fact, I challenge you to name a single war where one side didn't do a single think immoral, unjust, or otherwise wrong. It's impossible.Gregory Kochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329228700718085786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144408548910691939.post-81354473991437355672012-02-14T18:35:47.507-05:002012-02-14T18:35:47.507-05:00Seeker,
Thank you for reading and replying to my p...Seeker,<br />Thank you for reading and replying to my post. However, if you read my post more closely, my point was not that Lincoln didn't care about the plight of the slaves. It was that his goal in the Civil war had absolutely nothing to do with the slaves other than what the South made of it. He didn't fight the Civil War for the slaves. He fought it for the Union.<br /><br />Of Lincoln's rhetoric, that's very interesting. However, could you please put the specific quotes I mentioned in context? I really can't reply to what you're saying until I see that. The specific examples you show validate your point, but they can't necessarily be applied to the specific quotes I used. <br /><br />You also mention Lincoln and colonization. However, I do not. So I'm not really sure what your point was with that. <br /><br />Either way, it still does not excuse the suspension of habeus corpus and multiple obliterations of Constitutional rights. That cannot be attributed to misquoting Lincoln. There are documented cases. Why did Lincoln do this? To preserve the Union, of course. The Union that was created by the states and which some states voluntarily decided to leave. I'm not supporting slavery, and I'm not saying ending it was wrong. Far from it. But that doesn't excuse what Lincoln did.Gregory Kochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329228700718085786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144408548910691939.post-83885620466840903982012-02-14T18:31:39.884-05:002012-02-14T18:31:39.884-05:00There is another thing you don't know, and yo...There is another thing you don't know, and you have no clue you don't know it.<br /><br />You have no idea what Lincoln was up against. A lot of people trash Lincoln on this goofy idea that he didn't care about slavery, it was just a union thing, and slavery was an excuse.<br /><br />Bull f-ing crap. Yes, Lincoln had to speak that way. He had to finese it. You can cherry pick quotes there too.<br /><br />But what was LIncoln up against. You have NO CLUE that Congressmen in the NORTH were calling for the arrest and execution of ANYONE who said the war had to end slavery. Got that? These where CONGRESSMEN, saying on the floor of the House, let's arrest and execute anyone who says slavery has to end for the war to end.<br /><br />And it was not just this Congressmen. There was a HUGE part of the country, in fact, probably the overwhelming majority, who would have gladly put blacks on reservations in the desert. They did NOT want fifty cents spent to end slavery. Hell, a lot Northern people were related or had financial interest in slavery.<br /><br />Lincoln had to deal with the Congressmen who were calling for the death of anyone who said slavery had to end. You didn't know that did you? HELL NO. ANd just cause now you know, that stupid wrong impression you already have will probably remain.<br /><br />Learn what was going on -- the war was about the South's insane demands to SPREAD slavery. Everything in US history from 1800-1861 was about that monster effort to SPREAD slavery. Lincoln was the leader, who came back into politics because of Kansas Nebraska and Dred Scott, which essentially mandated the SPREAD of slavery, against the wishes of the people, and against any effort by Congress to stop it. <br /><br />You probably have no clue about THAT. And if you don't understand that, you can't understand anything about Lincoln.Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10206503506011763393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6144408548910691939.post-63573796240541164422012-02-14T18:23:49.380-05:002012-02-14T18:23:49.380-05:00A little knowledge is a terrible thing.
YOu hav...A little knowledge is a terrible thing. <br /><br />YOu have the classic, smug, condescending, and wrong, view of Lincoln. <br /><br />First of all, you clearly believe the distorted quotes that are attributed to Lincoln. And you ignore what he did, against what circumstances. <br /><br />Yes, can find quotes from Lincoln that say this and that about blacks, about slavery, and colonization. YOu can cherry pick them all you want.<br /><br />Many do.<br /><br />Those who hated Lincoln at the time, however, hated him for OTHER parts of his speeches -- the parts you apparently don't know about. The parts where he said -- in language so bold it changed American history -- that blacks are equal UNDER GOD AN UNDER ALL THE RIGHTS OF THE DECLARATION of Independence.<br /><br />Lincoln would use a specific linguistic technique --he used it so often, and to such good effect, that it really should be called the Lincoln shuffle.<br /><br />Again, and again, and again, and AGAIN, Lincoln would speak at first in ways that SEEMED to validate the prejudices of the day. (Lincoln's enemies today always cherry pick from those parts of his speeches.)<br /><br />But read on -- read the next sentence, read the next paragraph. Go on, READ IT. He soon switches backs, revisits the topic, and obliterates the sentiment, or shows it to be impossible, flawed, unwise, unjust -- whatever.<br /><br />Remember -- he was trying to get votes, talking to people, most of whom had never seen a black person, and wouldn't piss on a black if they were on fire. IT wasn't quite as bad as talking to a KKK convention, but close. And he was trying to WIN THEIR VOTE, not piss them off and get lynched.<br /><br />So he FIRST validated, or seemed to, but then flipped the other way. In his Peoria speech is a good example as any. He seems to agree with colonization (voluntarily) of freed blacks. So naturally Lincoln haters, and smug people like you, get that quote, run to your momma or whoever you are trying to impress, and claim Lincoln was for colonization.<br /><br />But you leave out two things. In a few minutes after he says this--- he does the Lincoln "thing". He revisits the sentiment he just sorta validated. He then says it's unjust and unworkable. He isnt for it.<br /><br />And you miss something else -- regarding colonization, you are clueless that Southerners, including some of their governors, were saying they would have to KILL their slaves if they freed them. Did you know that? HELL NO. So Lincoln was saying, in effect, oh, no need to kill them. How about colonization -- then he would as I showed, even refute that.<br /><br />There is a video on youtube with a short clip, from a 1939 movie, of Lincoln. He is debating Douglas in the clip. Short, but still valid example of what I am talking about. You can, as Lincoln haters do, quote him from that clip as saying blacks are INFERIOR. But in the NEXT SENTENCE he obliterates that. In some ways, blacks and whites are NOT equal, he says, but IN ALL WAYS UNDER GOD and Under the declaration every black person is equal to ANY white person.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKfNMel5dug<br />STrong, unequivocal, radical for its day, profoundly radical. But haters will take that same speech, and use the part where he says they are NOT equal.<br /><br />So learn what the hell you are talking about.<br /><br />One more thing -- learn what Frederick Douglass said about Lincoln. YOu act like you know more than Douglass does - fat chance. He was not only there, he knew the tricks and lies used by scum sucking pigs against Lincoln. Go find out what Douglass said about Lincoln. As soon as you know more than Frederick Douglass, or even 1/1000 as much, let me know. And go watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKfNMel5dugSeekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10206503506011763393noreply@blogger.com